1966 289 2v Electronic Ignition

I have installed the Pertronix Ignitor (#1281) in my 1966 Mustang 289 2v. I included the Flame Thrower 40,000 volt coil and the Flame Thrower plug wires as a "Trifecta" upgrade. The first unit worked for about two months and then the car began to run very rough. After several trouble shooting efforts I replaced the unit with the stock points and condenser and the car ran great.  I still wanted to upgrade to the electronic ignition so I returned the Pertronix unit and exchanged it for a brand new one on the presumption that the first one was defective.  I installed the new unit and it ran great again... for about two months and then it got hard to start, ran rough, backfired upon strong acceleration at freeway speed and stalled when cold and I shifted into Drive or Reverse from Park.  I took it in to my mechanic and they checked everything again and finally replaced the Pertronix unit with the stock points and condenser again. And.... it runs much better.  However, it has a missfire at idle. It runs ok and the mechanic says the scope says everything is correct. But, it just does not run smoothly like it did with the new electronic ignition installed. Am I just having bad luck with Pertronix? Do I need a better electronic ignition unit (Mallory? Pertronix II or III?) or do I have a distributor problem?  Nothing shows up on the scope but it does not run as smoothly as I think it should. Any ideas or input?????? It is a totally stock engine and I am not trying to hop it up too much, I just want reliable smooth operation.  

a few things...

did you contact pertronix about this???  when you sent back the original unit..  did they test it for proper operation???

i was wondering if the ignitor 1 was supposed to be used with the 40,000 volt coil..   its been a while since i was in their catalog..

i would like to know how the ground wire inside the distributer??? between the housing and the upper breaker plate????

and..  did you actually cut the PUSH on end off the factory coil positive wire connector.. and replace it with the crimp on ring terminal..  i am not talking about the red and black wire from the ignitor..  but the factory wire to the coil positive..   why.. i have found several installations.. where the car owner did not cut it off.. and just pushed the ring terminal on the stud and held it in place with the push on terminal..   this has worked until the push on terminal loosens its grip..


what about the ground wire.. inside the distributer..

the upper half of the breaker plate moves..    the points and the ignitor need to have the upper plate properly grounded with a flexible wire...

when the points close... electrons flow from the engine block through the hold down clamp.. to the housing.. to the ground wire to the upper breaker plate.. then to the points.. across the contact and up to the coil primary...

the other side of the coil primary has 9 or 10 volts of positive..  

this saturates the primary windings in the ignition coil..  creating a magnetic field...

when the points OPEN.. the electrons stop flowing.. the magnetic field collapses  generating a high voltage spark in the secondary..  

the coil primary on a V8 has to be charged and discharged 4 times per crank revolution..  so the electron flow requirements are critical...

but wait.. the condenser is on the breaker plate also..   when you have the points in..  if you have a lack of power and backfiring..  if the condenser is not tight in its bracket.. or the ground wire is not firmly attached to the breaker plate.. the feedback from the coil primary ringing and the mass of the electrons moving may cause additional sparks out of phase...   the ignition system is a tuned circuit..


Do you have a hand held digital volt meter..????  if so.,. start the engine..  turn on the headlights...

set the meter to 20 volts scale..

1.   measure from the positive battery post to the negative ...  you should have 14.1 to 14.6 volts DC..

2.  measure from the negative battery post to the engine block...   0.04 volts. is expected..

3. measure from the negative battery post to the body...    0.02 volts is expected..

4. measure from the Engine block to the firewall..    0.02 volts is expected..

if you get 0.00 volts on the last 3 tests...  change the meter setting to 2 volts DC scale and retest..

this test can be done in about 2 minutes..

please post results by number.. ...

if you get more than the 0.04 or 0.02  volts..  you have a bad ground between those parts..  additional ground wires or repair of what should be there..  

On the first installation I followed the instructions to the letter. It worked fine for about 2-3 months. I did not send it to Pertronix but returned it to NPD and got a new unit. The new unit was installed by my mechanic, so I do not know how it was actually installed. I have just communicated with Pertronix and sent the second unit to them for examination. I am waiting for their feedback. It does not seem like a difficult installation. And, I did follow the instructions to the letter. I will wait for Pertronix to get back to me to see what they found.  

if you get a few minutes...  print the instructions above for the 1, 2, 3, 4 tests.. post the results..

it only takes a few minutes to run the test...  

i have found tests... where the difference between the engine and the body in test 4 was 8.5 volts... the engine block ground.. was eight and a half volts higher than the body...

lets see... 14 volts plus 8.5.. HMM.. can you understand why the stuff was dying..

please post the results..   i personally would like to know that your car is fixed properly...  

When installing the Pertronix Ignitors it is often best to bypass the resistor wire from the ignition switch. The Pertronix likes to see full battery voltage, not the 7-9 volts through the resistor wire.

If you're just dropping the Ignitor into your distributor and running the black and red wires to the coil this could be your problem.

You have two options. You can use an optional relay kit Pertronix sells to get full battery voltage to the Ignitor (wired under the hood), or you can run the Ignitor's red wire to a switched 12-volt circuit. On most installs I do I run it right to the back of the ignition switch, but you can also wire it to the green/red wire at the voltage regulator. This is a switched 12-volt circuit and will work as well.

HTH...
Mark
.  
Mark Houlahan
Technical Editor
Mustang Monthly Magazine

1965 FFR Roadster 427W/TKO-600 5-speed
1966 Mustang 289-4V/C4 Auto
1968 Mustang 4.6L Three-Valve/5R55S Auto
1990 Mustang 347/AOD
2000 Mustang 3.8L V-6/4R70W
2001 Ranger SuperCab 4x4 3.0L V-6/5R55E Auto
2002 Explorer Sport Trac 4.0L V-6/5R55 Auto

Mark,

I also have a 66 289 2v, and I tried your suggestion of running the hot wire from the Petronix box (inside the distributor) directly to the ignition switch post. I used a 20 guage solid wire for the run. Unfortunately it would not start after I completed the work; it just turned and turned and once in a while would back-fire just as I was releasing the key from "start". I had to put it back on the coil for it to start. Can you speculate on what went wrong?

I have been noticing inconsistencies that could be attributed to the new Petronix Ignitor I recently had installed. Your post seemed like a reasonable explanation for my symptoms, so I tried it.

(This is my first post even though I've owned my car (66 convertible) since 1980. My dad and I rebuilt it when I was 17, then had to park it for 10 years while my four children were small, but now it's my daily driver again. One of the first things I did was subscribe to Mustang Monthly, and now I've registered for this forum.)

Thanks,
Johnny  

johnnyb66:
Mark,

I also have a 66 289 2v, and I tried your suggestion of running the hot wire from the Petronix box (inside the distributor) directly to the ignition switch post. I used a 20 guage solid wire for the run. Unfortunately it would not start after I completed the work; it just turned and turned and once in a while would back-fire just as I was releasing the key from "start". I had to put it back on the coil for it to start. Can you speculate on what went wrong?

I have been noticing inconsistencies that could be attributed to the new Petronix Ignitor I recently had installed. Your post seemed like a reasonable explanation for my symptoms, so I tried it.

(This is my first post even though I've owned my car (66 convertible) since 1980. My dad and I rebuilt it when I was 17, then had to park it for 10 years while my four children were small, but now it's my daily driver again. One of the first things I did was subscribe to Mustang Monthly, and now I've registered for this forum.)

Thanks,
Johnny

Johnny,
I'll let Mark address your question since you asked him directly but the correct way to wire the "Ignitor" is shown in the attached:
http://www.pertronix.com/support/manuals/pdf/ignitor12vneg.pdf  

Thank you for your reply. I did in fact read that pdf before I tried it. When I saw the FAQ:

Q. How to correct a low voltage problem?
A. First, if you have an external ballast resistor, connect the red Ignitor™ wire to the ignition wire prior to the ballast resistor. Second, if you do not have a ballast resistor you must locate a 12 volt source that is controlled by the ignition switch to connect the red Ignitor™ wire to.

I figured this was justification for trying it.

I also performed the 4 tests recommended and they all checked out fine. I'll put the timing light on it tomorrow, or after Christmas and see if that checks out.  

Thanks for the relys. I have not had a chance to do anything yet though. I did send the unit back to Pertronix at their request and hoped they would test it and tell me if there was something wrong with it. They did not. But, they did send me a brand new unit to replace mine.  I will print out your instructions as suggested and perform the tests you suggest. Things have been a little hectic lately so I have not had the time to get to it, but I will soon and will post the results. Thanks for all the help.  

Sorry for not seeing this post sooner. Holidays and all and taking a week off didn't help either...

Johnny, it sounds to me like you wired it to the "Start" wire on the switch and not the "Run" wire. This would allow it to crank and "almost fire", but when you release the key, bam, no power to the Ignitor. Do you have a volt meter or even a test light? You want the wire on the ignition switch that has power during start AND run. On the '68 I just installed the Pertronix distributor on it was green/red stripe and was on the same switch terminal as the resistor wire. I'm not sure if the '66 switch wiring is identical (been a long time since I had the switch out of my '66).

As I noted above, there's a hot wire (key switched) that goes to the voltage regulator you could try, or, just for test purposes, run the Ignitor's 12-volt wire directly to the battery. Of course to stop the ignition you'll need to remove the wire from the battery, but that's what the relay kit from Pertronix does for you if you permanently wire it in this manner.

Good luck...
Mark  
Mark Houlahan
Technical Editor
Mustang Monthly Magazine

1965 FFR Roadster 427W/TKO-600 5-speed
1966 Mustang 289-4V/C4 Auto
1968 Mustang 4.6L Three-Valve/5R55S Auto
1990 Mustang 347/AOD
2000 Mustang 3.8L V-6/4R70W
2001 Ranger SuperCab 4x4 3.0L V-6/5R55E Auto
2002 Explorer Sport Trac 4.0L V-6/5R55 Auto

I am very interested in this thread. I have the same concern. My car is a '66 Mustang with the 289 and 4V. Quite a few years ago I was "given" a Pertronix Ignitor. I never tried to install it until I found out how much points cost now. After I installed it, the car ran fine for a month or two and then started missing. I put the points back in and it ran fine. I decided that maybe I had done something wrong and installed the Ignitor again. It ran fine, but, as luck would have it, I didn't run it for several months and now it won't start. I would like to run those voltage tests, but they are with the car running. For the installation, I have run a wire directly from the ignition switch center post to the Flame Thrower coil. Please continue this thread especially with test results or success stories.  

FIY from the ignitor site

Q. What is the first thing I should check if the engine would not start?
A. Make certain all wires are connected securely to the proper terminals.

Q. The engine will not start or runs rough. Are there any tests that I can do?
A. Yes, remove the red Ignitor™ wire from the coil positive terminal. Connect a jumper wire from
the positive side of the battery directly to the red Ignitor™ wire. If the engine starts and runs
well, you may have a low voltage problem. Remember this is just a test and not intended for
permanent installation. Read “ How to correct a low voltage problem.    

wayne's edit on the above.. disconnect the red ignitor  wire from the coil positive. but make sure the coil positive is still connected to the cars harness...  or better..  just hook a jumper lead to the coil positive wire and to the battery positive. try to start the car...  to shut it off you will have to disconnect the jumper wire..   end edit.

Q. How to correct a low voltage problem?
A. First, if you have an external ballast resistor, connect the red Ignitor™ wire to the ignition wire
prior to the ballast resistor. Second, if you do not have a ballast resistor you must locate a 12
volt source that is controlled by the ignition switch to connect the red Ignitor™ wire to.

Q. What type of coil can I use?
A. The Ignitor™ is compatible only with a "points style" coil.

Q. What happens if I leave the ignition switch on when the engine is not
running?
A. This can cause you coil to overheat, which may cause permanent damage to the coil and the
Ignitor™.

Q. May I modify the length of the Ignitor™ wires?
A. Yes, you may cut the wires to any length your application may require. You may also add
lengths of wire if needed (20 gauge wire). Please make sure all wire splice are clean and
connections are secure.

Q. Will the shift interrupter on an OMC stern drive boat work with the Ignitor™?
A. The Ignitor is compatible with all OMC stern drive applications, when equipped with a "diode
fix". If you purchased a kit that does not include the "diode fix" diagram, call our tech line.

Q. How can I get additional help?
A. Call  for any further instructions or questions. You may also
logon to www.pertronix.com for the latest technical information.

more to come...  

mark mentioned this relay kit

http://pertronix.com/prod/new/details.aspx?ID=138




  Most AMC, Chrysler, Ford and pre-1974 (Non HEI) GM vehicles are equipped with OE resistance wires.  Pertronix’s Ignitor II and III ignition systems require a full +12V power connection between the ignition switch and the positive coil terminal.  This requires bypassing the ballast resistor or resistance wire.  In many cases, the original resistance wire is buried the vehicle’s wiring harness.  Adding a Pertronix power relay will eliminate digging through the wiring harness and replacing wires.



This 30 AMP relay kit can also be used with the original Ignitor conversion kits as well.  The benefits in addition to easier installation are as follows:



Minimizes conducted voltage spikes by isolating the ignition power source from other high current equipment
Provides consistent full battery voltage…No more voltage fluctuations from over loaded ignition switches
Eliminates problems from worn-out and corroded ignition switches, connectors and wires
Universal design…Works with most battery ignition systems
Small size…Keep your engine bay looking stock  

oh... sorry.. Johnny mentioned the relay kit..

i have a few tests....      do you have a timing light???  no we are NOT going to check the timing.. we are going to use it to know if the coil is creating sparks...



clip the red clip as shown..  over the coil output wire...     tape the trigger in the ON position...  position the timing light under your wiper arm so you can see the flashing..    try to start the engine.. do you get flashing???  if so...  then move the clamp to one of the spark plug wires ..  do you get flashing at a lower rate???


do you get spark not just from the coil.. but to the individual spark plug wires...  yes or no...????


yes.. this is a dirt cheep test and not what the timing light was designed for.. but almost everybody that works on their older cars has one laying around..  

now....   if you don't get spark when you are using the timing light as described above....

do you have a test light??????





hook this up backwards to what you would normally ***

hook the clip  to the positive side of the coil...    

shove the pointy end into something to ground it...  something other than the carb ...



slowly turn the key on..   you should get a medium bright light..    turn the key to the cranking position and while the engine is cranking.. the light should be full brightness... let the key return to the run position..  the light should go back to the medium brightness..

it should NOT go dark...

do you get a steady light without any drop outs..


let me explain the low voltage side of the ignition system.    

when you turn the key to the run position..    there is a connection made to the IGN1 wire that leads to the positive side of the points.. (there is a resistance wire on these fords between the ignition switch and the inside connector on the firewall..)

when you turn the key to the cranking position..   the connection made inside the switch is broken..  so the power stops flowing from the switch...    but.. on the starter relay on the inner fender is the i terminal..

when the starter relay/solenoid is engaged..    the I terminal gets power directly from contact inside the relay.. so it sends full 12 volt power to the coil...

i have had starter relays more than once fail internally.. where the I terminal not only does NOT get power from the closed contacts... but continues to maintain contact with the starter wire side of the relay.. this is enough to drag the voltage to the ignition primary circuit that there is NOT enough to start the engine..

you can.. unplug the push on I terminal on the starter relay.. touch that to the battery positive side and have somebody try to start the engine..